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Post by Taita Collins on Jul 21, 2007 6:48:35 GMT -5
Aye, not living in America myself I don't know that much about the education system but all I hear is news that it's not working all too well and that they haven't got their priorities straight.
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Why do you agree with him?
There is no rational way to explain why two adult people that meet every marriage qualification, that have their lives all worked out, that are the right age, that love each other cannot get married in a country that deems itself so liberal and free as America because they happen to be of the same sex. That would mean everything they say about people being equal in America and about America being a free country is a flat out lie.
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Post by Katie on Jul 21, 2007 7:29:32 GMT -5
All men are created equal. That has been, is, and always will be, true.
And America is a free country. But what does freedom mean? Does that mean allowing people to do anything and everything they want -- including murder, child abuse, rape, theft, etc.? No, absolutely not. I know that you will probably ask me what, then, is freedom. I have a difficult time defining this concept. I can give you examples, but I can't define it for you. I shall work on that later today and try to get you a definite answer.
Now, hear me when I say this: I do not hate homosexuals. They are human beings, created in the image of God. And Christ loves them, loves them so much that He died for them. No, I do not hate homosexuals. But I do not condone their lifestyle.
We, as individuals, make our own choices -- even ones that may be wrong. We have God-given free will to do so.
It is important to understand that God is God, and we are not.
God clearly defines homosexuality as wrong. Therefore, who are we, even as a nation, to legalize it?
God clearly defines marriage as a union between one man and one woman. Therefore, who are we, even as a nation, to add, subtract, or change that definition?
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Post by Taita Collins on Jul 21, 2007 7:46:44 GMT -5
If you are a free nation then you recognize that not everyone is a Christian, and therefor not everyone follows the words of your God. For He is your God, not everyone's God. I myself are a convinced Atheist. I do not have a God, and I am fine with that. I do not drink, I do not kill, I do not steal, I do not do drugs, I am a perfectly decent citizen just like everyone else, but I do not believe in a God. Does that mean that I should have lesser rights (although I am not gay =P) if I were gay and moved to your country?
I myself do not condone the lifestyle of all gays, and I think that is where people think wrongly. I do not agree with the overdoing, the shouting off the rooftops that one is gay. I'm not going around shouting "I'm straight!" either. I do not condone the promiscuity of some gay communities, but that also goes for straight communities just as well. I happen to know a gay couple that just got married here in Holland. They are just like every other couple. They do not overdo, they love each other unconditionally, they don't go out and rave and party like some gays, they have careers. Why should they not be allowed to marry because of the religious standpoint of others? Many gays are Christians themselves to begin with.
And no we should not be allowed to rape and murder, but I do not think you can even begin to compare these things. Love between two adult people that want to seal their commitment to each other is not murder or rape. It does not harm anyone. It brings them joy to know that they shall be together and that their love is now official (often to the church, actually). Freedom should not be limited because of what is written in the Bible, as there are many more bibles of many religions and one cannot say which is the absolute truth.
I have nothing against Christians myself, but I think many need to recognize that their religion is not the only one. Perhaps every religion (including atheism) has truths in them and they all combined are the truth. What one thinks because of their religion should not limit others if the choice they make does not harm anyone.
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Post by Katie on Jul 21, 2007 8:47:51 GMT -5
I recognize that not everyone is a Christian, yes. I also recognize that everyone has the right to follow whatever religion they want -- that goes back to God-given free will to make our own choices. But the right to follow a particular religion and the truth of that religion are not related. In America, we have the constitutional right of freedom of religion. But having the freedom to practice a certain religion does not mean that that religion is correct.
What you believe and what is actually true may be two separate things. People may say and believe that their god is God, but God -- the God of the Bible -- is still God, and nothing that we humans may say or believe can change that.
No. But you are making the assumption that you have the right to marry whoever you want. For example, do I have the right to marry my father, uncle, or brother?
I used rape and murder as examples. However, it is important to remember that sin is sin is sin is sin is sin. Murder, rape, and homosexuality are all violations of God's law, and according to the Bible, if we break even one law, then we stand condemned of breaking all of them. For a holy God, there is very little difference between brutally raping someone and stealing a package of gum. Both of them are still sins, and a thief stands just as condemned as a rapist:
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23 NASB)
Notice that the ultimate penalty for sin -- any and all sin -- is death. There is no distinction. It does not say, "For the wages of murder is death, for the wages of theft is ten years, for the wages of adultery is thirty years. . ." etc.
EDIT: I was re-reading this and I realized that I need to clarify here. When I say that the wages of sin is death, I do not mean that we should give the death penalty to every petty thief -- capital punishment and the role of the government are separate issues. What I mean is this: When you and I die, we will stand before a holy God, and we will be judged. Now, let's say that the only wrong thing I did all of my life was to kill someone, and the only wrong thing that you did all of your life was to tell a lie. It seems like I'll get the worst punishment, right? But, you and I have both fallen short of God's perfect standard, and therefore we both stand condemned to death -- which is total separation from God, meaning, hell.
BUT.
BUT.
There is a lot of bad news in the Bible. But once you accept it, there is also good news, usually in the form of a comma, the conjunction 'but', and the good news itself. I can deal with the second half of that sentence (Romans 6:23) in my next post if you so wish.
Yes, there are many holy books, but are all of them correct? Jesus Christ said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6 NASB) He is clearly saying that Christianity is the only way to God, and all other religions are wrong. Therefore, either Christianity is true and all other religions are wrong, or all (or another) relgion(s) are correct, and Christianity is false.
Now you say that no one can say which is absolute truth. Is that not an absolute in itself -- to say that no one can know what is absolutely true?
Also, the moment you say that there is no absolute truth, then a lot of other things start to break down -- including science. Is not the premise of science that there are things we can know for certain? Water freezes at 0 degrees Celsius and boils at 100 degrees Celsius at 1 ATM. Is that not true all the time?
Okay, you sort of have a point here. All (I will go so far as to say all) religions have certain points that they can all agree on, because all people have consciences, and their consciences are all aware of the same absolute standard of what is truly right and what is truly wrong. For example, I, as a Christian, and you, as an atheist, both agree that rape and murder, in your words, "should not be allowed." Why do you think that is? I propose that the reason we both agree that rape and murder "should not be allowed" (that's an absolute statement that you are making right there) is because there is and absolute standard of right and wrong. And God has given us something called a conscience through which we perceive that rape and murder "should not be allowed" -- are wrong -- because they violate this absolute standard.
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Okay, I realize that I have glossed over a good deal of what you have written, and I wish that I could have dealt with everything. But that would take a large amount of time, and it would mean going down many rabbit trails.
Besides, gay marriage isn't the main issue, is it?
The reason that you and I do not agree on the issue of gay marriage is because our worldviews do not agree. Our worldviews -- our framework for understanding existence -- do not line up. You and I do not agree on the nature of man, the nature of God, and all the other things that spring up from that (the nature of reality, what is truth, what is morality, definition of the family, politics, etc.) Therefore, I've tried to deal mostly with those things, for our differences there translate to our differences on gay marriage.
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Post by Taita Collins on Jul 21, 2007 9:02:32 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but that is completely out of context. Incest should not be allowed, but marrying someone of the same sex out of your family is not incest. Those two are completely different things.
As for the truth; Every bible of every religion claims to be the truth as the Christian Bible does. You do not know if yours is the truth. Perhaps it is, but you can't know. Science you can know. Science has been proven over and over, and the same goes for evolution. Science and evolution have little to do with the existance of a God.
But you are right about our worldviews. You see everything in God's context. I see everything in man's context. I believe there is no God, there has never been a God, and there will never be a God. And that gives me great responsibility over my own life. I cannot hide behind my religion (I'm not saying you do but many believers do). I am fully responsible for everything that happens in my life, even more so because I do not believe there is a God that will eventually judge me for heaven or hell. It's all on me. It's my natural responsibility to make the best of my life, regardless of a God.
As for every sin is a sin; Of course they are. But since when is the unconditional love between two unrelated grownup human beings a sin? Because your bible says so? The old Greeks had their religion in which homosexuality was not a sin. Why can't they be right? I believe everyone should limit their religion to themselves in stead of forcing them upon others.
You cannot be a free nation if you only allow people that agree with you to get the freedom you say you will give to anyone.
EDIT: Being atheist does not mean that I have no interest in other religions by the way, cause I have studied many of them. I have actually taken bible studies as a subject in high school. I know the bible. I have read it, I have studied it. And then I have made the choice not to believe in it. But, I'm always interested in the point of view of others that do believe in it.
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Post by Katie on Jul 21, 2007 10:13:25 GMT -5
And yet, according to God, both are still sin. The person who commits incest and the person who commits homosexuality will both stand condemned. Yes, every religion claims to be true, but that does not make them true. Now is this statement question of the veracity of the Christian Bible? I'm a bit confused by the use of "yours". Do you mean "You do not know if your Bible is the truth"? If it so, I can deal with that in my next post. Science deals with that which can be repeatedly tested and measured -- nature. Science does not deal with the supernatural -- God, heaven, hell, angels, demons, etc. -- because the supernatural is beyond (prefix "super"- means "beyond") nature and does not ordinarily manifest itself in the natural world. You say that evolution has been proven. How do you know this? You say that you believe. But how do you know that what you believe is true? How do you know that there is no God and that you will not stand before Him at the end of your life and give an account of yourself? Unconditional love -- and, "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13)-- is not a sin. But sexual love outside of the marriage between one man and one woman is a sin, according to God's standard. You mentioned a gay couple that recently got married, and you said that they "loved each other unconditionally". I take this to mean that they love each other in the 1 Corinthians 13 (see here: www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/tools/printer-friendly.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=13&version=NASB#top) sense? That kind of love between any two people is good. But it is the sexual love with which God takes issue. Why can't the Greeks be right? Because their religion clearly contradicts the truth of the Bible. Would I be right to assume that you take issue with the veracity of the Bible? You mentioned previously that murder and rape "should not be allowed." Are you not forcing your beliefs on other people when you say that murder and rape should be prohibited? I have two Hindu friends. Clearly, I disagree with them on some major points, but I do not deny them the freedom of religion, of press, of speech, of assembly, of a fair trial, etc. Their religious beliefs do not preclude them from practicing the freedoms guaranteed by the US Constitution. --- Yes, I understand that you are not hostile or ignorant of other religions. Neither am I. I actually enjoy discussing and debating these topics. And also, I hope that, despite our differences, we can still be friendly towards one another and continue to plot the next episode in the Will-Taita saga. xD
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Post by Taita Collins on Jul 21, 2007 10:28:01 GMT -5
Yes, I meant that. Every argument you give for every issue has at it's core that the Bible is the absolute truth. I'm just saying, what if it isn't?
By now the line from bacteria to man has almost fully been determined. It is clear that there were no men all of sudden as made by God. It is clear now that men did not appear out of nowhere. That is why. If we were created by God, then He made bacteria, not people.
This is exactly my point. This is what I believe as is God what you believe. I do not know if what I believe in is the truth, and neither do you. That is why people should stop forcing their religions on each other and become more free, such as allowing gay marriage. How do you know there is a God that condemns gay marriage? I say there isn't. How do you know you're right? Belief should not be a reason to decline another person's happiness.
No, it is not. For as you have said yourself before, we all have a sense of right and wrong. You call it God-given, I call it natural. We know hurting someone is wrong. That is why I believe incest is wrong; The children that come from it will have deformities. I believe you should be allowed to do what you wish as long as it does not hurt someone else. So in that sense there is no God, but murder and rape are still prohibited.
With that statement I was talking mainly about gay marriage. That because of their sexual orientation and because of what your Bible says, they should not be allowed to be married in a country which says everyone is an equal. Obviously, everyone is only an equal if they abide the laws of the Bible. Outside of the Bible's lines, like being gay, you are not an equal to the law anymore. This is obvious in the fact that gay people cannot get married.
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And of course not XDD The Will-Taita-saga cannot stop due to whatever differences we have. Personally, I believe that a world without religion would be a better world because most wars are caused by religion. But the beautiful thing about religion is that people find support, or in this case, people learn to cope with each other's indifferences without letting it mess up the RP saga. =D
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mathoni
Galactic Republic Alliance
Posts: 177
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Post by mathoni on Jul 21, 2007 11:38:47 GMT -5
I almost hate to chime in on this conversation, both of you are very eloquent writers. But I happen to know a thing or two about knowing and believing. I know that someone can know the absolute truth. I know that there is a God. I know that the Bible is the word of God. I will admit that there may be some translational errors, but as far as that book is translated correctly, it is the truth. Now you may argue that it is impossible to know, that I merely believe. But I have felt things, and I have seen things, that prove to me beyond all doubt that God is real, and that Jesus Christ is his son. I too will respect all others beliefs, one of the basic tenants of my faith is that "We claim the privilege of worshiping the almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allow all me everyone the same right, let them worship how where or what they may." So I will not force others to believe how I believe, but I happen to know that what I believe and they way I live has brought me peace in and happiness in my life, and I know that in the life after death I will have those same feelings. And as for the topic of gay marriage, I'm against it. How against it, I did a lot of lobbying when I lived in Nevada to add an amendment to the state constitution banning it, we got it passed. Why am I against it, because marriage should be between a man and a woman. The purpose of marriage is create a family and raise children. Husband and wife each have their respective roles in raising their children. Fathers and mothers are irreplaceable. Now if someone chooses to be gay that is their choice, but they do not need the same sacred rights that belong to a husband and wife.
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Post by Taita Collins on Jul 21, 2007 11:45:41 GMT -5
First of all, I have experienced, felt and seen things that have made me believe that God does not excist. You cannot say you know the truth. It is if anything an insult to all other beliefs to say you know the absolute truth for then they are just nitwits believing lies. Belief is belief. It's fine if you believe in the Bible, but there is no absolute proof that it is the truth. Next to that, all other beliefs also claim to know the truth. It was what you have been brought up to believe in. If the Bible is the truth, then you were brought up with the right book. There is no proof to say God is real and the Bible is true, it is all a matter of personal opinion to choose what you believe in.
Secondly, marriage to christians means the union between a man and a woman with the purpose of a family and to raise children. But christian marriage isn't the only type this world knows. Because the christian definition of marriage is as such, that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be other types of marriages for other types of unions. Personally, I see marriage as the official seal to two people's love. So this can also be two women or two men. That does not matter. In your view of marriage, gay marriage is impossible. In my view it isn't.
Thirdly I do not believe you choose to be gay. Did you choose to be heterosexual? Surely not. You just are. The same goes for gay people.
And finally, it is all subjective what we choose to believe in. Subjectivity should not be at the core of major decisions at national level.
EDIT: Don't mind you barging in, shouldn't just sit there. X3
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mathoni
Galactic Republic Alliance
Posts: 177
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Post by mathoni on Jul 21, 2007 12:31:37 GMT -5
I cannot think of any major religion in existance today that doesn't have somewhere in its teachings that marriage is defined as between a man and a woman. To use some of your words, its the proper way of nature to have men and women be together. Our species would not exist if it didn't work that way.
And as for choice. Somewhere in a persons life the choose to follow their natural instincts or follow something else. Young or old, conciously or not they chose to follow that life style. If I may return to religion, it is Satan who wants them to believe that they had no choice in the matter.
And just to be clear, while i may believe I'm right, I do not hold lower opinions of others because they believe differently.
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Post by Taita Collins on Jul 21, 2007 12:39:55 GMT -5
Well apparently you do. You hold lower opinions of gay people that believe they have the right to get married because of the teachings of your Bible and do not deem them worthy of marriage because of your religion. That is treating them as second-rate citizens, which is holding a lower opinion of them than yourself.
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Post by Katie on Jul 21, 2007 12:45:02 GMT -5
I was wondering when you would chime in Keeper. Where is that from? I've never heard it before, but it reminds me of why some groups of people came to America during the Colonial period. First, I will deal with why I know that the Bible is true: One, manuscript evidence. The entire New Testament was written 50-100 AD. Also, all four of the Gospels were written within the lifetime of the witnesses, so there is no way that legendary embellishments could have crept into the text. We have fragments of copies as early as 114 AD and entire copies at 250 AD. That is a gap of 50-250 years between the original writings and the surviving copies that we have. In all, we have 5656 surviving copies. The 50-250 year gap is a ridiculously short amount of time. Biographies on Alexander the Great were not written until 400 years after his death, and scholars accept them as trustworthy. Two, archeology. We have been digging stuff up that confirms the smallest details in the Bible. Here's a pretty cool example: For a long time, no one could find any evidence that the Hittite and Assyrian empires had even existed, and those two empires were high-profile in the Old Testament. It was an embarrassment. But evidence did turn up, and now the Hittite and Assyrian empires are mentioned every world history class. (For me, that was Global Studies I.) Three, prophecy. Guys, go read the Book of Daniel. Get yourself a good commentary and go read it. It will blow you away. I won't spoil it for you by discussing it here, but go read it. There are 333 prophecies in the Old Testament regarding the Messiah alone. All of those were fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ. Do you know the probability of fulfilling only 48 of those 333 prophecies? 1 in 10 187. Clearly, the Bible is inspired by One who alone knows the end from the beginning. I remind you that the Old Testament had already been written and translated into Greek centuries before Christ was born. Four, same theme throughout -- "the redemption of a sinful human race by God's grace through faith in the shed blood of a redeemer" (out of my notes). I'm not the person to talk to about these things. But if you want to get into this topic, I can give you some really good places to start: The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith by Lee Strobel Cosmic Codes by Dr. Chuck Missler Oh, and while I'm thinking of it, Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. I don't buy into theistic evolution. Either a sovereign God exists, or random chance exists, but they cannot co-exist. For a better explanation, see John MacArthur's The Battle for the Beginning. As for the line from molecules to men? Do we have a fossil record to back this idea up? Can you give some examples? Right and wrong. You and I keep throwing those words around. They are clearly absolutes. After all, murder is not right for me and wrong for you, is it? Thus far, I have said that our knowledge of right and wrong -- our conscience -- is God-given. You say that it is inborn. But you don't subscribe to the existence of a living, holy, eternal unchanging God. That's a problem, because if you throw out the living, holy, eternal, unchanging God, then you are no longer allowed to have any absolutes, such as "murder and rape should not be allowed." Where would you get these absolutes? If there is no God, then there is no fixed point for an absolute standard. How would such things evolve? I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. Can you explain this or rephrase it? Yes, we as individuals all decide what we will and will not believe. But should we not show some unity as a country by saying that there is a standard that we all hold to? And if so, would it not be better if the standard that we all agree to hold to was the Truth -- not your truth, not my truth, but God's Truth? Matt said something along these lines too, only he said that these things had brought him to greater faith. I just want to point out something. I am female. I'm sure Taita knows, because she is female too, that females are very... emotional. Matt, you're probably old enough and mature enough to recognize that females are highly emotional, and their emotional stability balances on a razor's edge. My point is that I know that my emotions are the very last thing I can trust. I also know that sometimes my eyes are untrustworthy too. So I am not a Christian because I'm on some kind of spiritual high and I just "feel" that Christianity is entirely true, or someone performed some cute little magic tricks and convinced me. I've done lots of reading over the years, and the more I dig, the more reason I find to my faith. I've heard it put this way: It's not a matter of who has the most faith, or who has the most reason. It's a question of who has the most reasonable faith. EDIT: And I'm going to try to play catch up on the gay marriage discussion in my next post. There were just a few other things that I wanted to answer first.
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Post by Katie on Jul 21, 2007 12:57:26 GMT -5
According God, as He has laid down in the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. And so who are we to legalize it?
According to God, as He has laid down in the Bible, marriage is defined as a permanent (barring very specific extenuating circumstances) union between one man and one woman. And so who are we to add, subtract, or change that definition?
You mentioned that homosexuality is genetic. Can you provide some evidence for that? Maybe a reputable article or something?
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Post by Taita Collins on Jul 21, 2007 13:05:51 GMT -5
Right, let me clear this up. I am not saying that everything in the Bible is nonsense. I do believe that there are truths in it. Like the civilizations. I am not saying they never excisted. But all archeological evidence in the world cannot prove the existance of God. I also believe that Jesus Christ once lived. But I also realize that after study of the ancient Greeks, people in the early ages did not understand things for the way they were. They did not have explanations for natural processes, so they linked them to God. They had no way to control the masses, they introduced them to God. They had no way to secure the future of their followers, they had God. God has been the solution to problems for centuries, yet I do not believe He excists. Even the plagues can in this time and day be rationally explained.
I could, if it wasn't for the simple fact that I am Dutch and have read Dutch books and documents about this and have seen Dutch documentaries. XD But I can try. They have found a line of fossils leading directly to apes and man, the earliest being small bacteria with the first signs of cartilage. This is the precise same cartilage as humans have, and the precise same cartilage as is found in a line of fossils that are of later date than this first one.
I would have explained properly, but that would have been in Dutch and that wouldn't have made sense to you. XD;;;
This is actually in my earlier statement. If there is no God then we are all responsible for everything in our own lives. This gives us great responsibility, but then it is our task to make the best of our lives. You cannot hide behind God. In Nietzsche's words, when "God is dead" you will have to become the most perfect person you can be.
I meant that in the US constitution it says that everyone is an equal. Well obviously, they're not. Because if you are gay you are not treated as an equal by the law, such as not being allowed to marry the person you love.
As to the other comments:
You assume God excists. Not everyone assumes God excists. Those people who do not believe in God, or not in your God, are being victimized by your religion (such as gay people not being able to get married). According to God? People who do not believe in God do not care about according to God. That is you. You cannot generalize that. Plus, as said, many gay people are faithful loyal christians. They believe in and love God. But they also love each other.
As for homosexuality being genetic, to me it is obvious. Many people who are gay have described it as we describe it. How do I know I'm straight? Because I am attracted to guys and not to girls. They are attracted to the same sex. There's no difficult maths to be done there.
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mathoni
Galactic Republic Alliance
Posts: 177
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Post by mathoni on Jul 21, 2007 13:23:18 GMT -5
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